<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Neighborhood&#8217;s first traffic circle installed at 23rd &amp; Anza</title>
	<atom:link href="http://richmondsfblog.com/2013/01/08/neighborhoods-first-traffic-circle-installed-at-23rd-anza/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://richmondsfblog.com/2013/01/08/neighborhoods-first-traffic-circle-installed-at-23rd-anza/</link>
	<description>News, info, photos, videos &#38; history about the Richmond District neighborhood of San Francisco.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 19 Jun 2013 18:17:02 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.5.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Video: How do people navigate the new traffic circle on Anza &#38; 23rd? Not well. &#124; Richmond SF Blog</title>
		<link>http://richmondsfblog.com/2013/01/08/neighborhoods-first-traffic-circle-installed-at-23rd-anza/comment-page-4/#comment-285511</link>
		<dc:creator>Video: How do people navigate the new traffic circle on Anza &#38; 23rd? Not well. &#124; Richmond SF Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2013 21:41:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://richmondsfblog.com/?p=20001#comment-285511</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] reported on its installation earlier this year, and despite the circle having been finished, landscaped, and signed with instructions, drivers [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] reported on its installation earlier this year, and despite the circle having been finished, landscaped, and signed with instructions, drivers [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Alai</title>
		<link>http://richmondsfblog.com/2013/01/08/neighborhoods-first-traffic-circle-installed-at-23rd-anza/comment-page-4/#comment-259576</link>
		<dc:creator>Alai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2013 00:57:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://richmondsfblog.com/?p=20001#comment-259576</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;north on 23rd&quot; should be &quot;south on 23rd&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;north on 23rd&#8221; should be &#8220;south on 23rd&#8221;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Alai</title>
		<link>http://richmondsfblog.com/2013/01/08/neighborhoods-first-traffic-circle-installed-at-23rd-anza/comment-page-4/#comment-259575</link>
		<dc:creator>Alai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2013 00:56:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://richmondsfblog.com/?p=20001#comment-259575</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[One potential problem: there are parked cars right up to the intersection on Anza on the NE corner. As a result, you basically have to enter the intersection before you can see whether or not there&#039;s someone approaching. I&#039;m afraid that people driving west on Anza will assume they can drive forward, while someone driving north on 23rd will nose in to peer around the parked car, and a collision will occur.

The opposite corner has curb cuts which have eliminated parking there.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One potential problem: there are parked cars right up to the intersection on Anza on the NE corner. As a result, you basically have to enter the intersection before you can see whether or not there&#8217;s someone approaching. I&#8217;m afraid that people driving west on Anza will assume they can drive forward, while someone driving north on 23rd will nose in to peer around the parked car, and a collision will occur.</p>
<p>The opposite corner has curb cuts which have eliminated parking there.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Steven Hiatt</title>
		<link>http://richmondsfblog.com/2013/01/08/neighborhoods-first-traffic-circle-installed-at-23rd-anza/comment-page-4/#comment-259465</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Hiatt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jan 2013 20:42:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://richmondsfblog.com/?p=20001#comment-259465</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks, Scott.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Scott.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: ScottRAB</title>
		<link>http://richmondsfblog.com/2013/01/08/neighborhoods-first-traffic-circle-installed-at-23rd-anza/comment-page-3/#comment-259450</link>
		<dc:creator>ScottRAB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jan 2013 20:11:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://richmondsfblog.com/?p=20001#comment-259450</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Steve,

Urban compact modern roundabouts start out at around 90 feet in diameter to the outside curb.  Mini-roundabouts are usually capable of fitting inside a 60-ft diameter space, but mini-roundabout islands are mountable for large trucks (no signs on the central island).  23rd looks like a typical width, while Anza looks closer to 40 or 44 ft wide.  If the intent was a mini or ultra-compact urban modern roundabout, then standard practice would be to include splitter islands on each approach, crosswalks set 20 ft back from the yield line and comensurate parking removal to clear the visibility.
    The key to a modern roundabout&#039;s safety is the slow operation.  15-20 mph is the appropriate operational speed.  This is only achieved by deflection - requiring motorists to go around something and slowing to do so.  Smaller circles have less deflection and less slowing (conversly, very large circles also have higher speeds).  For neighborhood traffic circles the idea is to provide a minimum lane for auto traffic, about 13 ft around the circle, clearly mark the crossings to keep ped and auto paths from overlapping, and make the circle as large as will fit within those constraints.  A narrow truck apron is provided to let longer vehicles travel through intersections, though not necessarily make left turns.
  I would also point out that the liability laws in the UK are quite different than the US, and the rights of pedestrians significantly greater.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve,</p>
<p>Urban compact modern roundabouts start out at around 90 feet in diameter to the outside curb.  Mini-roundabouts are usually capable of fitting inside a 60-ft diameter space, but mini-roundabout islands are mountable for large trucks (no signs on the central island).  23rd looks like a typical width, while Anza looks closer to 40 or 44 ft wide.  If the intent was a mini or ultra-compact urban modern roundabout, then standard practice would be to include splitter islands on each approach, crosswalks set 20 ft back from the yield line and comensurate parking removal to clear the visibility.<br />
    The key to a modern roundabout&#8217;s safety is the slow operation.  15-20 mph is the appropriate operational speed.  This is only achieved by deflection &#8211; requiring motorists to go around something and slowing to do so.  Smaller circles have less deflection and less slowing (conversly, very large circles also have higher speeds).  For neighborhood traffic circles the idea is to provide a minimum lane for auto traffic, about 13 ft around the circle, clearly mark the crossings to keep ped and auto paths from overlapping, and make the circle as large as will fit within those constraints.  A narrow truck apron is provided to let longer vehicles travel through intersections, though not necessarily make left turns.<br />
  I would also point out that the liability laws in the UK are quite different than the US, and the rights of pedestrians significantly greater.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Steven Hiatt</title>
		<link>http://richmondsfblog.com/2013/01/08/neighborhoods-first-traffic-circle-installed-at-23rd-anza/comment-page-3/#comment-259439</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Hiatt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jan 2013 19:36:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://richmondsfblog.com/?p=20001#comment-259439</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Scott, I don&#039;t think it&#039;s relative size that&#039;s the issue. Controlled-entry traffic circles are typically much (often much much) bigger than the 23rd/Anza intersection. Roundabouts are usually much smaller--hardly any neighborhood streets (never mind major streets) in Britain are as wide as San Francisco&#039;s (ridiculously) wide avenues--take a quick look at Google Maps. As a regards the space issue in this case, that&#039;s why I raised the question of why the center circle structure was so big. It&#039;s interesting that San Franciscans seem to be so terrified of all-yield roundabouts: are we incapable of learning what the average Brit did in the 60s and 70s? Or folks in other parts of the US? I do understand that there were some problems with the Page Street experiment--but quite frankly I think it was sabotaged by city authorities who didn&#039;t want to do it anyway (see, for example, the odd signs they used to signal the roundabout, which I think people found confusing).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott, I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s relative size that&#8217;s the issue. Controlled-entry traffic circles are typically much (often much much) bigger than the 23rd/Anza intersection. Roundabouts are usually much smaller&#8211;hardly any neighborhood streets (never mind major streets) in Britain are as wide as San Francisco&#8217;s (ridiculously) wide avenues&#8211;take a quick look at Google Maps. As a regards the space issue in this case, that&#8217;s why I raised the question of why the center circle structure was so big. It&#8217;s interesting that San Franciscans seem to be so terrified of all-yield roundabouts: are we incapable of learning what the average Brit did in the 60s and 70s? Or folks in other parts of the US? I do understand that there were some problems with the Page Street experiment&#8211;but quite frankly I think it was sabotaged by city authorities who didn&#8217;t want to do it anyway (see, for example, the odd signs they used to signal the roundabout, which I think people found confusing).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: ScottRAB</title>
		<link>http://richmondsfblog.com/2013/01/08/neighborhoods-first-traffic-circle-installed-at-23rd-anza/comment-page-3/#comment-259423</link>
		<dc:creator>ScottRAB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jan 2013 19:02:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://richmondsfblog.com/?p=20001#comment-259423</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Past experience has been poor when trying all-way yield (there is also a bias against such control in the MUTCD).  One of the recurring confusions I see posted is that the city is building a roundabout.  It is not.  It is building a neighborhood traffic circle.  The two types of circular intersection operate differently due to their relative sizes.  I don&#039;t think you have the space at this intersection to build a proper modern roundabout with the necessary entry separations to employ yield signs as the intersection control.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Past experience has been poor when trying all-way yield (there is also a bias against such control in the MUTCD).  One of the recurring confusions I see posted is that the city is building a roundabout.  It is not.  It is building a neighborhood traffic circle.  The two types of circular intersection operate differently due to their relative sizes.  I don&#8217;t think you have the space at this intersection to build a proper modern roundabout with the necessary entry separations to employ yield signs as the intersection control.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Steven Hiatt</title>
		<link>http://richmondsfblog.com/2013/01/08/neighborhoods-first-traffic-circle-installed-at-23rd-anza/comment-page-3/#comment-259415</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Hiatt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jan 2013 18:51:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://richmondsfblog.com/?p=20001#comment-259415</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[ScottRAB, Thanks for the additional info. Has the City said why stop signs will remain in place? It&#039;s actually NOT the normal MO for neighborhood roundabouts (except, perhaps, when authorities are hounded by fearful neighborhood groups who&#039;d prefer adding another stop sign to slow traffic, rather than a roundabout in the first place). If the stop signs remain, then the traffic circle simple slows east-west traffic a bit on Anza in a very expensive way. That&#039;s not bad--but we&#039;d get a better result at this and other intersections by using roundabouts as they&#039;re usually used--to slow traffic while avoiding use of stop signs.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ScottRAB, Thanks for the additional info. Has the City said why stop signs will remain in place? It&#8217;s actually NOT the normal MO for neighborhood roundabouts (except, perhaps, when authorities are hounded by fearful neighborhood groups who&#8217;d prefer adding another stop sign to slow traffic, rather than a roundabout in the first place). If the stop signs remain, then the traffic circle simple slows east-west traffic a bit on Anza in a very expensive way. That&#8217;s not bad&#8211;but we&#8217;d get a better result at this and other intersections by using roundabouts as they&#8217;re usually used&#8211;to slow traffic while avoiding use of stop signs.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: ScottRAB</title>
		<link>http://richmondsfblog.com/2013/01/08/neighborhoods-first-traffic-circle-installed-at-23rd-anza/comment-page-3/#comment-259398</link>
		<dc:creator>ScottRAB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jan 2013 18:03:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://richmondsfblog.com/?p=20001#comment-259398</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Steven,

Circular intersections change the number of conflict points possible.  the only place motorists can run into each other at a circular intersection is where one car enters while another is circulating.  The reduction in speed (typically 15-20 mph) also significantly decreases the likelihood of serious injury if a collision does occur, first because at 20 mph you have more time to react and second, due to the reduction in energy.  The geometry of crashes at circular intersections is also a factor in the reduction in injuries (glancing sideswipes instead of 90-degree angles).  Neighborhood traffic circles are objects in the road that must be driven around.  Impaired motorists will run into them - one nickname for these small neighborhood circles is DUII-catcher.
BTW, the City has confirmed that existing traffic control will remain in place - this is the normal way for small neighborhood traffic circles like this.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steven,</p>
<p>Circular intersections change the number of conflict points possible.  the only place motorists can run into each other at a circular intersection is where one car enters while another is circulating.  The reduction in speed (typically 15-20 mph) also significantly decreases the likelihood of serious injury if a collision does occur, first because at 20 mph you have more time to react and second, due to the reduction in energy.  The geometry of crashes at circular intersections is also a factor in the reduction in injuries (glancing sideswipes instead of 90-degree angles).  Neighborhood traffic circles are objects in the road that must be driven around.  Impaired motorists will run into them &#8211; one nickname for these small neighborhood circles is DUII-catcher.<br />
BTW, the City has confirmed that existing traffic control will remain in place &#8211; this is the normal way for small neighborhood traffic circles like this.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Steven Hiatt</title>
		<link>http://richmondsfblog.com/2013/01/08/neighborhoods-first-traffic-circle-installed-at-23rd-anza/comment-page-3/#comment-258891</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Hiatt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jan 2013 20:50:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://richmondsfblog.com/?p=20001#comment-258891</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Bob Unlike the Page Street experiment a few years ago, this time they&#039;ve installed standard signs indicating a roundabout (on Page St, the city cooked up some odd thing on its own, which was confusing). These signs are pretty clear. (When I first drove in Britain some years ago, having zero experience with roundabouts, I had no problem.) Yes, some people will slow down and scope out what&#039;s going on because it&#039;s an unfamiliar configuration. But this isn&#039;t a he said/she said problem. There is plenty of documented North American experience with installing traffic circles/roundabouts, and the research verdict on them is that people get used to them quickly and most people then like and prefer them. (That&#039;s actually also the UK experience, which began in the late 60s/70s--early pushback followed by enthusiasm.) That said, there&#039;s no point in a roundabout at 23rd/Anza if they are going to keep the stop signs on 23rd. Stop signs are used on entrances to large traffic circles in some circumstances, but the 23rd/Anza intersection is a classic situation calling for a stopless roundabout.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Bob Unlike the Page Street experiment a few years ago, this time they&#8217;ve installed standard signs indicating a roundabout (on Page St, the city cooked up some odd thing on its own, which was confusing). These signs are pretty clear. (When I first drove in Britain some years ago, having zero experience with roundabouts, I had no problem.) Yes, some people will slow down and scope out what&#8217;s going on because it&#8217;s an unfamiliar configuration. But this isn&#8217;t a he said/she said problem. There is plenty of documented North American experience with installing traffic circles/roundabouts, and the research verdict on them is that people get used to them quickly and most people then like and prefer them. (That&#8217;s actually also the UK experience, which began in the late 60s/70s&#8211;early pushback followed by enthusiasm.) That said, there&#8217;s no point in a roundabout at 23rd/Anza if they are going to keep the stop signs on 23rd. Stop signs are used on entrances to large traffic circles in some circumstances, but the 23rd/Anza intersection is a classic situation calling for a stopless roundabout.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
