Photo by leo811
Twitter user leo811 captured some troubling video footage of bubbling dry ice in Golden gate Park’s Lloyd Lake on Monday afternoon.
She witnessed about a dozen “eruption points” where dry ice had been dumped into the lake. In the photo above, you can see wild birds cruising nearby.
Lloyd Lake sits on the edge of where the free Hardly Strictly Bluegrass music festival took place last Friday through Sunday. Some roads in the park remained close through Monday morning as crews cleaned up after the popular event which drew 600,000 people to Speedway, Lindley and Marx meadows.
While Lloyd Lake bubbled, leo811 asked a nearby worker who was cleaning up the festival if they had seen anything. They replied that a van had driven up and dumped the ice into the lake, but they were unable to describe it in detail. A Park Ranger was also on the scene taking pictures for a report, and surmised that it was most likely one of the event’s food vendors that dumped the dry ice into the lake during their cleanup.
Hopefully the wildlife in Lloyd Lake steered clear of the dry ice spots. According to one manufacturer’s website, dry ice can cause severe frostbite within seconds of direct contact, and if ingested, can cause severe internal injury. The website further cautions that unused dry ice should not be dumped or left in areas accessible to the general public.
On her blog post about the bubbling lake, leo811 vented her frustration:
Regardless of whether (in my opinion most probable) it was an Event Vendor or some transient passer-thru, I believe that the amount of people these Events draw, should not be in the Park. There is just too much damage to be done and obviously not the man-power to control it..
Sarah B.
The bubbling Lloyd Lake also appears in this video, which aired on KRON-TV’s “People Behaving Badly” segment:
I’m trying to figure out what the big deal is here. I’ve searched for everything relevant I can think of on Google and although I’ve found other videos of dry ice in lakes, I haven’t found anything that indicates it’s a bad thing to do.
Dry ice is frozen carbon dioxide. Yes, it is very cold, and can cause frostbite very quickly, but it’s possible to, say, toss a small block of it from hand to hand quickly without damaging your hands. I imagine any animal would have the smarts to get away from something that is too cold for comfort. The gas it gives off as it “melts” is just the gaseous form of carbon dioxide, the same thing we put into sodas and emit every time we exhale. It can kill, but only by causing oxygen deprivation in a poorly ventilated space–and the lake is well ventilated. CO2 is heavier than air but lighter than water, so it will rise to the surface of the water (as the video plainly shows) where it shouldn’t be any danger to fish or other aquatic animals. And both birds and fish can easily get away from it.
There may actually be some reason not to do this, but I sure can’t figure out what it might be. I would be pleased if someone would enlighten me.
I agree with Zannie. I don’t see any harm in disposing of the extra dry ice in this way. If there is some evidence of it causing harm, I would agree that the vendor should take the ice with them.
Golden Gate Park is an urban park. It is not pristine wilderness. Event such as HSB are perfect and legitimate uses of urban open space. There is no other location where you put on such an event with such minimal environmental impact. Most attendees arrive by foot, bike and muni. If the event was held in a more rural location most attendees would be forced to drive.
Occasional large events in the park are a legitimate use.
The dry ice in Lloyd Lake is just the tip of the iceberg. (No pun intended.) Sure, this incident may not be harmful, but it’s symptomatic of the mayhem and destruction that occurred during this year’s HSBG. When almost a million people converge in a small space it’s a recipe for disaster. There were illegal campers all over the place, illegal fires that could easily have set trees and bushes aflame, and countless drunk, stoned, and disorderly concertgoers who trampled bushes, carved large paths through the underbrush where none existed, created terrible traffic problems in the Richmond and Sunset districts, and defecated and urinated in the park and on private property outside the park. Oh, let’s not forget that many of these drunk/stoned people were leaving the property park and getting into their cars to drive home.
Even worse, there weren’t enough police to manage the crowd. Fortunately, there were no serious injuries this year. But that was probably just plain luck. Fun is fun, but when it borders on reckless disregard for public safety and failure to protect property, it’s time to reexamine things.
If you were upset by the concertv and believe it needs to be better managed and controlled, please write or call Mayor Lee, Supervisor Eric Mar, City Attorney Herrera, and Rec & Park General Manager Phil Ginsburg. City Hall needs to hear from us.
Supervisor Mar will be attending a community meeting tonite at the Richmond Rec Center at 18th Ave. between Clement/California. Please come and tell him how you feel about Hardly Strictly and other oversized concerts in Golden Gate Park.
Thank you Jean for recognizing that this is not only a problem, but a crime. Yes, Zannie and Joe a crime. I went with two Police officer’s from the Richmond Station to the Lake, but because the bubbling had died down AND they didn’t witness the action, there wasn’t much they could do. They did say it was a crime. Zannie, just because it may not harm the Wildlife, doesn’t make it right. Joe, so because the Park is more accessible than say Candlestick Park, the landscaping and life, both Animal and Human should suffer abuse? Outrageous positions. Feelings like the two of yours are why misbehavior and worse happens. Its allowed to and no one does anything about it. … Thank you Jean also for the information on tonight’s meeting.
Jean – Please don’t misinform. Tonight’s meeting at the Rec Center is to discuss the officer-involved shooting and murder that took place on Monday morning in the Richmond District (https://richmondsfblog.com/2011/10/03/community-meeting-tomorrow-night-about-fatal-stabbing-police-shooting/). Sorry, but I don’t think it’s appropriate to try and hijack the meeting to discuss Golden Gate Park. Of course Mar will be there and you can speak to him otherwise, but Kim, please be aware this is NOT a community meeting tonight about any old topic. Thanks
Sarah B.
Admin- I was just thanking Jean, I find it better to address things via post mail and email, rather than in meetings where time is limited as many topics are often on the table. I think the detail and clarity the letters provide is far more thought provoking. … Thank you for noting the actual meeting agenda for others though.
I’m not sure who dumped it, but the event clean-up crew found a chunk and some was in the lake. It was featured in Stanley Robert’s “People Behaving Badly” segment on KRON (it’s on YouTube too).
What exactly is illegal about putting dry ice in the lake?
I was at HSB all weekend and I don’t remember seeing any dry ice on stage at all…
Thanks, Akit. Gnarly video. I added it to the post.
Sarah B.
well andrew… that’s because it was in the lake.
The festival has way more pros than cons.
It seem alike Kim needs a hobby or to start taking vacations during the beginning of October. Festivals like HSBG are part of what makes GG park so wonderful, that it can support such an event and leave no trace, allowing the park life to return to it’s normal state of urban parkness. I live on the park and wouldn’t have it any other way.
Please email, write or call Mayor Lee, Supervisor Eric Mar, City Attorney Herrera, and Rec & Park General Manager Phil Ginsburg about not just some dry ice, but the complete abuse of the quiet, residential side of a public park. Try living on the entrance to these events, 30th and Fulton. This is a neighborhood, not a public access point. Not only do we have to pick up four days of garbage, listen to four days of screaming and discordant music inside our own homes, but nobody in government wants to move the event because where it is makes so much money.
All it would take is to move these events away from homes and quiet neighborhoods and toward the more public side of the park. Wouldn’t Sharon Meadow be just as good? It’s closer to Haight street and that would be a great entrance for commerce, being set up for the public, unlike us.
Please voice your concerns and help your community, as money and profit screams even louder than these concerts. How would you like your front yard overtaken by hundreds of thousands of people screaming all night, all day, peeing on your driveway in front of you, leaving human excrement and trash, and camping there so you can’t even drive away if you wanted to?
haha are you kidding me? 30th and Fulton is a public access point and has been one long before you lived there. Thanks for the advice on emailing people in city government. I just voiced my support for the successful event that was HSB.
@akit- Thank you for the post of the video. Its curious that there is both a non-lake “stash” of the Dry Ice from what it looks like in the Vendor area? … @ron- I will go to the Richmond Station today and get the legal wording of why since you obviously think its ok to dump stuff in the lake, and with that anywhere else that’s convenient. geez. … @diction- I have hobbies, and one is spending time in the park. That said, I don’t like it being messed up in this way, (as the video proves), and certainly not by people who aren’t even area residents and have no consideration for the surroundings. Its too many people for proper control. I’d also like to hear your list of pro’s and con’s.
I don’t necessarily think we should stop the festival but the city should be accountable to manage the event so that neighbors like Jill are minimally impacted. If they can’t do that, they should compensate those people or they should make the event smaller.
@jill- agreed 100%! Thank you for getting it. I am not at an access point like you, but I heard sirens from emergency vehicles all weekend, in addition to helicopters. @ron k- Your comment doesn’t even make sense. When, other than these type Events have you seen a portion of 600,000 people enter the park using the access point at 30th and Fulton?
Some 180,000 attendees at this concert. You think that all the people from San Jose, Sacramento, Santa Cruz, Bakersfield, Tahoe and further afield drive home every night and come back in the morning? You think they rent hotel rooms? So — where do you think they sleep, when they’r ein the middle of the largest urban park in the U.S? Is this a trick question? They sleep in the Park, they sleep in their cars on the street, they sleep in RVs… and cars and the Park don’t have toilet facilities. I have talked with the SFPD about this and it has just been waved off with “not a problem.” For whom isn’t it a problem? I came upon two sets of two walked between the Rose Garden and teh de Young at 10 a.m. on Sunaday a.m. — still asleep in their sleeping bags.
If I were the SFPD, I’d blow it off, too. Because — what can they do? They don’t have the resources to arrest and process a few hundred people — let alone anyplace to store them. But Warren Hellman is a hugely rich and powerful man — so our neighborhood and America’s largest urban park are just supposed to “put up and shut up.”
@sue- Agreed! The things that are being allowed to go on in this City because those outside the rich and political level is out of control and will only get worse. Sad.
@Kim – I didn’t say I think it is OK to dump the ice in the lake but I am not one to jump to conclusions without all the information. I can’t think of any harm that the ice may cause to the lake but that doesn’t mean there is none that I am not aware of. I also can’t think why it would be against the law to dump the ice in the lake but that also doesn’t mean it isn’t.
If it’s not harmful, it’s not the tip of any iceburg.
I’m not saying “let’s all go throw dry ice in lakes.” I’m just saying that unless there’s actually some kind of harm done, there’s no sense getting all worked up into a tizzy over it. The only harm I can see is the harm you’re doing to your heart by getting so upset over it.
Golden Gate Park has been there since the 19th century. Surely you knew it was there when you moved here? I don’t attend Hardly Strictly Bluegrass because it’s not my cup of tea, but I think it’s wonderful that people can gather and have a good time in the park. Road closures are annoying, and living on the north side of the park I am affected by them, but I’m affected by them every Sunday, too. I just put on my big girl panties and deal with it.
Certainly campfires are not appropriate but that’s the only thing anybody’s mentioned that seems so terrible to me, and it has nothing to do with dry ice.
For me the ice is not about legal or harm, it is about the disrespect of dumping.Paragraphs of complaint, snarky defense or paranoia although may be entertaining to read-are they productive?
Yes the park has been there a long time its good to use the park but what level? Multiple events of 100,000 + are not sustainable for the neighbors or the park. Call write or e mail city hall, the deals are cut there. Happy with it all? Let them know that too.
My thanks to Sarah for reporting facts and keeping the idea exchange flowing, Can we have some productive suggestions to agree or disagree with? My suggestion- citizen panel of neighbors and event goers to make decisions about the number and scale of park events
Well, here we go again.
Neighbors complaining about other people using the park in a loud fashion. Again people are up in arms about the “complete abuse of the quiet, residential side of a public park.” There seems to be this thinking on these threads that if you live near the park, you somehow have more rights than other people who don’t. Because you live near it and the noise affects you, other people shouldn’t be able to enjoy the park in that way. Wrong. The park is for everybody in the city, and that means even the people who want to make noise now and then.
As far as the dry ice goes, I’d be interested in any studies that show any harm to en environment or animals caused by dumping dry ice in lakes. If there is no damage shown in any studies to date, then it shouldn’t be a crime. But I have no data.
@Ron & Zannie- Ron, It is illegal and I got that specific information just for you. I will post it later, I need to sift through my phone messages since the Officer called me with the info. Basically there is a Law about Dumping anything anywhere in the Park. Regarding it being any less of an offense just because its not harmful, that’s a ridiculous thing to even say. I guess you think shoplifting is acceptable as well since its not harming anyone? Good Grief, the thought process of some comments make my brain feel like mush. … @David- You said it plain and simple. Disrespect. People visit the Park all the time and disrespect the Wildlife and the Landscape. That is regular Visitor traffic. When there are crowds of this size it begins to be a problem, in many ways. … @J- It is a crime and as David pointed out its just disrespectful.
You can view the San Francisco Parks Code in full here > http://www.archive.org/stream/gov.ca.sf.park/ca_sf_park_djvu.txt … The Section regarding this topic is under article 4 Disorderly Conduct …
SEC. 4.03. POLLUTING WATERS
PROHIBITED.
No person shall throw or place, or cause to be
thrown or placed, any garbage, trash, refuse,
paper, container, or nauseous or offensive matter
into any pool, pond, tank, or fountain in any
park.
In addition, attention is called the fact that
state law prohibits the littering or dumping of
waste into lakes and other bodies of water.
(Added by Ord. 603-81, App. 12/18/81)
SEC. 4.04. LITTERING AND DUMPING
OF WASTE MATTER PROHIBITED.
Attention is called to the fact that state law
prohibits the littering or dumping of waste mat-
ter in any public park. (Added by Ord. 603-81,
App. 12/18/81)
What do you mean shoplifting isn’t harming anyone? It harms the people who own and work for the store.
Would you guys object if this had been regular ice made of water instead of dry ice made of carbon dioxide? How about unfrozen water? What if it’s soda water, with carbon dioxide in it?
The only thing people dumped in the lake in this case is something you dump in the air every time you exhale.
Honestly, I don’t think anyone could be convicted of violating that law by dumping ice. The case would be laughed out of court.
@Zannie- Would you be ok if someone put Dry Ice in the tub while your baby was having a bath? … I’m out now, too much nonsense being bantered about. What happened as a result of this Event is disgraceful, disrespectful and criminal. Spin it how you want but that is the bottom line.
It depends on the size of the block of dry ice. If the ratio of dry ice to water were about the same as the ratio in the lake, no, that wouldn’t bother me at all.
Here’s another fun thing you can do with your big scary dry ice: make ice cream!
http://chemistry.about.com/od/dryiceprojects/a/dryicecream.htm
And yes, Kim, I would feed it to my baby, once it warmed up enough.
I am disappointed, but not surprised by the NIMBY posts on this blog. San Francisco is a large congested metropolitan city. Parks like Golden Gate Park are open spaces that should be available for a wide variety of uses. Some events attract large numbers of people. This ha been true in GGP since it was opened when about 47000 of San Francisco’s 250000 residents attended an opening event.
I have lived within 80 yard of the North side of the park for the past 12 years and moved to this part of town in order to be closer to all the small and large events in GGP. I have attended HSB, B2B and many other events during my 23 years in SF. I have gone to HS B with my kids for the past 9 years. It is an amazing event.
All large events have issues. The fact that a small number of people engaged in what some see as objectionable conduct is a reason to look at how the event was managed. However, it should also be recognized that a very large number of people had a great time without doing any lasting damage to the park or to any private property.
People who choose to live by the park must realize that it is a location where large events are held as they have been for years. It is the same to living close to a public beach or close to Marina Green or the Presidio. GGP is not a wilderness area like Mt. Tam or Pt. Reyes and people can’t expect to live in an urban area and not be occasionally confronted with traffic and people who are not completely considerate of others.
If you don’t want to occasionally be exposed to large numbers of people and large events you should not live in a city that is only 49 square miles.
Well said Joe, as a neighbor of this urban park, I too happen to love the events and festivals held there.
But regardless, some people will forever be addicted to miserabilism. And will forever be UPTIGHT. Considering the size of the event over the years, it’s been splendidly executed.
And what’s with the hysterics over the dry ice in the lake? I mean, COME ON PEOPLE. Instead of spending time and energy (yours and the police) on what is ultimately a trivial issue, perhaps you should volunteer that time restoring landscapes and planting trees at the park you claim to love so much?!
Thank you, Joe. I spent all of Saturday at HSB. I saw families with children, groups of friends, all having a wonderful, peaceful time. Events like this are one reason I live in and enjoy this city. I don’t believe people as far away as 30th Avenue could actually hear the music; I could barely hear what was playing at one stage as I moved over to the other.
As for the dry ice, maybe people could wait for some actual evidence before making accusations about HSB.
Kim: “Would you be ok if someone put Dry Ice in the tub while your baby was having a bath? … I’m out now, too much nonsense being bantered about.”
This is by far the funniest thing I’ve seen in richmondblog comments, and that is saying a lot as the comments on this blog make sfgate-crashers look brilliant.
Kim: Helicopters? Other than during the officer involved shooting, because I know there were helicopters during that incident.
Sue: You came across 2 sets of people sleeping in sleeping bags? In the park? I am really sorry for your traumatizing experience.
David: How are these events not sustainable? I do not understand. If you personally don’t like the events, that is an entirely different matter.
Jill: If there were truly people screaming outside your house late at night, the police would in fact respond to that. If you are talking about people coming and going to the concert during the day, that is a different story. And as someone else noted, the 30th ave entrance to the park isn’t your personal driveway.
Thank god for the rational thinking people on here.
There are way worse things to complain about as far as living in a city in concerned. Public concerts is not one of them.
Here we go.
“You can view the San Francisco Parks Code in full here > http://www.archive.org/stream/gov.ca.sf.park/ca_sf_park_djvu.txt … The Section regarding this topic is under article 4 Disorderly Conduct …
SEC. 4.03. POLLUTING WATERS
PROHIBITED.
No person shall throw or place, or cause to be
thrown or placed, any garbage, trash, refuse,
paper, container, or nauseous or offensive matter
into any pool, pond, tank, or fountain in any
park. ”
Please provide where Dry Ice fits this definition, those of you who think it is a crime. Let us look at this in greater detail.
Dry ice isneither garbage, refuse, or trash.
It is not paper, a container, nor is it particularly nauseating.
Is it offensive? If someone out there has some sort of religious aversion to dry ice, believing it is perverse and contributing to the immorality of society, I haven’t heard of them.
*****
Look at it this way. Let us assume there is a party next to stow lake. Someone brings a large trash can and fills it with regular ice. They use it to store beer and liquor for the party.
The party is over. They remove the unused alcohol from their still-ice-filled trash container, and dump the contents into the lake.
Have they committed a crime? According to some of the people on this board yes they have.
Dry Ice is colder than regular ice, but it’s still ice (a different, natural chemical), and it turns out fishes and other aquatic lifeforms are pretty good at getting out of the way.
So where is the damage, and where is the crime?
Nowhere. Just a bunch of NIMBYS. JT and Joe, get used to them, they are everywhere on these message boards.
Why is our neighborhood disproportionately abused by summer concerts? Do you think for one minute the folks in Sea Cliff or Pac Heights would tolerate these events taking place in their front yards? Was Golden Gate Park designed to accommodate a crowd of 500,000, or was it built as a respite from urban life? These and many other questions need to be answered. Even the Chron’s C.W. Nevius, a supporter of Rec & Park, questioned the sized of the crowd this year. See: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/09/29/BAPL1LAQ9C.DTL
I don’t know about the rest of you, but I do not want people peeing on my front steps, blocking my driveway, or stomping on my plants. Nor do I want to see Golden Gate Park trampled to death. And despite the fact that so far there haven’t been any serious injuries at this “ginormous” event, it’s just a matter of time.
Worst of all, despite all our pleas, we’ve yet to sit down with representatives from Rec & Park, Supervisor Mar or the Mayor’s office and talk to them about our concerns.
This isn’t NIMBYism. This is just a plea for common sense, decency and respect.
I love HSB. I love events in GGP. I don’t love the garbage that is left behind by the massive crowds. I don’t love the trampling and destruction of the parks plants. I think that some of the events need to be better managed, either by the City or by the hosts of these events. On Sunday morning I found a lot of garbage and people camping on the trails (with fires!) when I went running. Have concerts, have events, host BBQs, etc. just do it with a modicum of respect for the environment your in, i.e. try not to litter, ruin the greenery and have illegal and dangerous fires.
“environment you’re in” (sorry)